Future of two prime beachfront caravan parks could be under threat

Published: October 18, 2024

The slow demise of many of Australia’s prime beachfront caravan parks has been a sad feature of the last few decades … and there are now signs that two more could be under threat.

The Fraser Coast Chronicle reports that the future of two beachfront caravan parks in the Queensland town of Hervey Bay is uncertain amid momentum to ‘unlock’ the council’s prime commercial spaces for public use.

According to the newspaper, the Fraser Coast Council has just voted to pause work on $22million worth of revamps at the Pialba and Torquay caravan parks in favour of a consultation process where councillors and the community will be asked to look at new possibilities.

The Chronicle reports that the motion effectively opens the door for the Torquay Caravan Park to eventually be closed in favour of ‘alternate’ uses (though this would still be put back to a vote after community consultation).

The newspaper reports that proposed upgrades to the Torquay site are now ‘temporarily suspended’ as they are at the Pialba park, until ‘alternative, lower cost redevelopment opportunities’ are considered there.

Plans for both parks have been referred back to council CEO Ken Diehm to ‘undertake further engagement with councillors’.

Because of the ‘recreational, economic’ importance to the community, revised options are then expected to be put to the public for widespread consultation.

The motion to pause work at the parks was given unanimous support by councillors, but there were still differing views as to why that was the right course of action.

The Fraser Coast Chronicle reports the motion was tabled by councillor Zane O’Keefe who said it was time for a ‘refocus’ and showed the ‘clear intent to unlock parkland and alleviate congestion’. He argued it was time to create ‘connected inclusive communities and spaces right along the Hervey Bay esplanade’.

And Councillor Lachlan Cosgrove said it was important that, before making investments of $8million and $14million respectively on the two caravan park redevelopments, the council should look ‘very closely’ at unlocking the land for ‘our residents to use as a premiere recreation spot’. He said the unimpeded oceanfront views at the caravan parks were only on offer to people staying there, and were not comparable to other public spaces which were blocked by trees.

The Chronicle reports that Mayor George Seymour said he would support the motion but ‘with a bit of reservation and not enthusiastically as (the caravan parks) have been here for decades, are part of our heritage and brought people here who now live here’.

Councillor Denis Chapman said he was voting in favour because it was a ‘great way of putting it out to the community’, but he said he was ‘quite disturbed’ by a business-led ‘agenda’ to close the Torquay Caravan Park and also, a proposal to build a water lagoon in its place.

“These caravan parks are making a million dollars or more for this community,” he said. “They are also making money for businesses bringing people into the area – I hope the community is quite clear on what they want for the Fraser Coast.”

Similarly, the Chronicle reports that Councillor Phil Truscott said he wanted to be ‘on the record’ as not supporting the closure of the Torquay Caravan Park.

The Fraser Coast Regional Council has been investing in caravan parks in recent years. It recently completed a major redevelopment of Scarness caravan park, updating the infrastructure to suit modern RVS, as well as significantly improving facilities.

And the council says the first stage of the Burrum Heads caravan park redevelopment is also expected to be completed early next year, with the entire project set to finish by August 2025.

  • Do you think it is important that historic beachfront caravan parks like these are preserved, or do you think their gradual demise is inevitable? Comment below.
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Teresa Delane
8 months ago

Keep the caravan parks

Mard
8 months ago
Reply to  Teresa Delane

I don’t have a van..but they bring a great deal of money into the community, yes yes yes keep them

Maggie
8 months ago
Reply to  Teresa Delane

What the hell is council thinking about….
Keep the parks open, look at all the $$$$$ that tourist bring into Hervey bay.
People will by pass your town and stay else where. $$$$$$ will be lost, HB will go backwards.

heather
8 months ago
Reply to  Maggie

its quite possible only the rich will end up living on this property

Len Sorrell
8 months ago
Reply to  heather

Or a retired Councillor!

Jan
8 months ago

Stayed at Torquay in August 4weeks. Close and you will lose our dollars. $$$’s spent in HB across everything from food, fuel, shopping, and restaurants and more!

Carol
8 months ago

I live on the Fraser coast and I say keep the caravan parks.

Lorraine Mcdowall
8 months ago

I live in Hervey Bay and I say keep the caravan parks, they bring a lot of revenue to the area, with all the caravan people who come to the area and spend money in our town,without that happening the town will not be as flush with revenue in all areas

Karen Baker
8 months ago

I’d like to see them preserved. My family moved to Hervey Bay in 1981 when I was 5 years old and we lived in the Pialba Caravan Park until 1985. I used to chase around a skinny blonde boy and ended up marrying him 38 years later. We’ve stayed in the Bay but have staycations in both the Pialba and Torquay caravan parks. They are a part of our history, our present and hopefully our grandkids future.

Helen B
8 months ago

Keep the van parks, there is still plenty of green open space that can be used. Tidy up the esplanade at Pt Vernon for example and utilise that better.
It will kill small business if these parks close.
Don’t ruin what people move here for.

Glenn Cameron
7 months ago
Reply to  Helen B

Spot on

Sandra
8 months ago

Keep the caravan parks .. ban highrise development above the town plan!

Gary Webster
8 months ago
Reply to  Sandra

Reduce how many councillors 6 in Hervey Bay alone surely 2 can manage the bay itself

maric
8 months ago
Reply to  Gary Webster

Easy fix, next council elections, vote accordingly

Wayne Wickham
8 months ago

We just stayed at the Torquay caravan park it is a beautiful place to stay. So many people go to the pubs supermarkets hairdressers. If there’s no caravan park no tourists less money in the town people won’t come

Peter Edwards
8 months ago

As the numbers of immigrants explodes and the population grows, those without EV’s might still like to tow a caravan around this country, (EV’s never will) either during their holidays or after retirement but either way, caravan parks are both valuable assets that bring people who spend money into areas as they pass through and also to give longer term holiday makers (not permanents) somewhere to stay for a few days or a few weeks while they explore the area around the parks.
Councils need to remember that without caravan parks to attract people towing vans, for whatever reason, those people will not stop and nor will they spend their money supporting the local businesses in the towns.
It’s always a shame that so many of today’s councils seem to be made up of either people who hate development, have a dislike for caravans or are simply blind to the benefits the vast majority of caravanners can and do bring to towns, many of whom a really struggling these days.

86GTS
8 months ago
Reply to  Peter Edwards

Beachside towns in QLD aren’t struggling to survive like small remote towns in the Outback.
They don’t need caravanners ”fairy dust” to survive.

Glynn
4 months ago
Reply to  86GTS

Not sure about fairy dust, but I’m calling bulldust on your comment…these two parks bring a great deal of dollars into the town

Lynda
8 months ago

Yes keep the caravan parks tourists spend money and help keep towns alive

Eliza68
8 months ago

Anyone who has been at these lagoons knows how busy they get and traffic congestion is worse, not to mention the added cost to community in hiring permanent lifeguards, costs in keeping it clean, infection outbreaks, etc. Redevelop the existing water park and wave pool if need be, but not upgrading the caravan parks can only see the tourist dollar diminish and HB losing out to neighbouring tourist towns. Maybe the one thing council should do is stop the year on year reservations of the best camping locations to the same families, first in best dressed should apply, giving other camping/caravanning families opportunities to enjoy the view!

D B
8 months ago
Reply to  Eliza68

Totally agree that yearly reservations should be banned. Give more people a chance to see the Bay

Jack
8 months ago
Reply to  D B

Yes that is an issue. Not only here but also on the Sunshine Coast. But there is one thing for sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. Close the parks and they will NEVER return.

Darryl Palin
8 months ago
Reply to  Jack

Spot on.

Rhonda Olifent
8 months ago
Reply to  Eliza68

Agree with this comment. Make it FAIR….allow everyone the opportunity to enjoy the area.

Sylvia shaw
8 months ago
Reply to  Eliza68

Here here give us all the opertunity to get in . Not only the regulars year after year

Glynn
4 months ago
Reply to  Eliza68

Why does it have to be all or nothing…. Those yearly bookings are generally at peak times and generational in some circumstances, other times there are always spots. As a local of Scarness, I would encourage you to visit our outside of peak times, its much nicer without the masses

Neil Cadden
8 months ago

Keep the caravan parks as tourists bring money into the towns and improve the local economy. If closed down and then made parkland for locals then the tourism dollar will be lost as locals will use the parks for picnics (good use of area) but not spend in the local shops therefore local economy suffers.
OR
is there an ulterior motive where council will close the parks and remove infrastructure and then when local economy falls sell or lease the area to developers,

Steve Martin
8 months ago
Reply to  Neil Cadden

I think you are on the money there Neil. Additionally, turning a revenue generating asset (both for Council and businesses), into a liability loss by way of no income but heavy ongoing costs just doesn’t make sense.

Howard
8 months ago

from what I remember from a few visits/holiday and looking at Google Earth there appears to be “miles and miles” of beach and foreshore access.
The 2 caravan parks are a drop in the ocean so to speak.
One always wanders about hidden agendas, especially a few years down the track.

Rob
8 months ago
Reply to  Howard

Howard, You are spot on. My wife said from when the first plans came out that there was an ulterior motive to eventually sell the land to developers after making the caravan parks non viable by drastically reducing the number of sites! (Pialba). I now think she is correct. They say modern caravans are large and need bigger sites. Rubbish. We have a large caravan and don’t need a bigger site. Just learn to reverse properly. Our family has been going to Pialba caravan park for nearly 40 years and the way it is now run this will be our last year. By the way it has mostly been on the same sites. ( not on the fore shore) Those in charge should be sacked for no forward thinking or planning. Eg. A few years ago a new barbecue was built on foreshore site. Within a short time the barbecue was shifted behind an amenities block to free up a foreshore site. (Foreshore sites attract higher fees) Guess where the barbecue is going in the redevelopment. Back to the foreshore. Why does council have contractors who hire the caretakers running the parks. Surely this is lost revenue to council. Council should be able to hire caretakers. If council is that useless they should not be there. By the way, the only thing wrong with the Pialba caravan park is the caretaker residence/office area needs demolishing and a new one built. All other amenities are fine. They are not that old so why knock them down in the new plan?.

Chris T
8 months ago

Why is it so important for we Grey Nomads to have more or less exclusive access to beachfront land to the detriment of all others. Sure the rents collected are huge but should be offset by the alternate better feeling and wellbeing of all others including locals and tourists. G.N’s can stop at places little removed from the beachfront and use our hind legs to access when required.

Perry Sinn
8 months ago
Reply to  Chris T

Shut down the caravan parks and shut down the town

Jack
8 months ago
Reply to  Perry Sinn

Yeah, the issue is that those in the council executive branch and elected councillors have short memories or weren’t in Hervey Bay when tag along tours were introduced. That move alone caused Hervey Bay to lose 600,000 backpackers a year.

The supermarkets, backpacker hostels, hotels, buses were flat out. Them it stopped within months where the operators all moved to Rainbow Beach.

Guess what. The helicopters are still flying backpackers from Fraser Island to the hospitals. Nothing much changed on the Island.

Glen
8 months ago

Hervey Bay has 11km of sea-front esplanade walkways but only 2 beach-front cafes. Nothing after dark… and six caravan parks on/near the beach. Torquay should be the premier restaurant and nightlife hub for the town and caravan parks do not provide that kind of enterprise. The council should be making much more money from this prime location.

Last edited 8 months ago by Glen Richardson
Ian Addicott
8 months ago
Reply to  Glen

I have tried to book these parks numerous times and been told that majority of bookings are booked permanently by the same people the day they leave for the next year. The question I ask is how many new campers get to use these park facilities and use all the tourist attractions

Benni
8 months ago
Reply to  Glen

once the HB resort is built, caravan parks will be passe….just joking

Jack
8 months ago
Reply to  Glen

Gee, Glen you couldn’t have been in Hervey Bay long. There used to be 3 Night Clubs in Hervey Bay when the backpackers were coming here. The State Government build the harbour and there were fact cats to the Island every couple of hours. The Harbour Precinct was designated for tourist related development. Before the GFC Developer Kevin Seymour was looking at building a harbour for superyachts.

Guess the developers who moved in after that don’t have the foresight to use the assets the Hervey Bay area possesses.

Dianne oliver
8 months ago

If they plan a water lagoon does that give ratepayers who don’t support it an option for cheaper rates if they don’t use it ?

Barbara Dunstan
8 months ago
Reply to  Dianne oliver

Why do we need a water lagoon when the sea is right there???

Jack
8 months ago

Exactly!

Brendan Joseph SMYTH
8 months ago

Stingrays, bluebottles, sharks and our resident croc. You don’t find too many locals swimming there for the obvious reason.

Delma Taylor
4 months ago

The last fatal shark attack in Hervey Bay was 1922 and I was born here and now 65 years old and have never been stung or attacked by sea life yet. Your more likely to be attacked by another person then in our beautiful ocean

Gina keightley
8 months ago

Must be kept

Brian Harmer
8 months ago

Close the caravan parks and harvey bay will suffer

Gina OBri
8 months ago

Without the caravan parks we will never stay there again. There are far to many iconic caravan parks been pushed out, turned into concrete jungle areas, useless car parks & a place many no longer want to visit. Even a place no longer nice to live. Look what has happened to Noosa in the past decades.

Natalie Tkaczynski
8 months ago

My husband & I live in Maryborough & have only just bought a small RV for weekends away. We had already earmarked the Pialba & Burrum Heads Caravan Parks as great places to stay. It will be dreadfully disappointing if they were to disappear

Lynne Cornish
8 months ago

Fewer caravan parks equals less income & even loss of jobs, which will certainly have a detrimental effect on small businesses in HB.

Tom Mahony
8 months ago

Tom Mahony just stayed torquay and was very happy with park and amenities. Both parks attract financial gain to the region . Closing is unthinkable and irresponsible .

Grumpy
8 months ago

only having one caravan park will the price go up like the gold coast $45/$55 + night
I think they might have lost me from going back there

Gail
8 months ago
Reply to  Grumpy

Prices are already higher than what you have quoted. Next year fees will be $78.00 in Fraser Street not even beach front. You need to keep Caravan Parks to generate income to Hervey Bay. STOP
High rise as people come to the Bay to get away from Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast. Hervey Bay is unique. Keep it that away. You will loose many travellers.

Len Sorrell
8 months ago

We ran a Motel at Surfers Paradise in the 1970’s when the locals; who had been tourists before buying houses; wanted to limit tourists because they could not get a parking space in Surfers. It is dangerous to ask the same folks (ex-tourists) in Hervey Bay if they want to limit tourism so they can enjoy a walk along the beach. Also, how long after the Council frees up this valuable land do you think it will be before Council allows the freed-up land to be sold for “re-development?

Alicia
8 months ago

Beach front caravan parks are what makes Hervey Bay what it is. A traditional family holiday place. Keep them

Len Sorrell
8 months ago

If the van parks go, what do you think will happen to Council Rates to cover the lost revenue. Dumb idea!

Gillian
8 months ago

The caravan parks always seem to be full all year round. The water lagoon often seems to be closed( for various reasons) or few people using it. What extra money does this bring to the town. A lagoon does not have to be on prime beachfront land! The main issue with the beachfront is lack of parking with a steady stream of vehicles crawling along hopeful of someone leaving so they can park. So will the council remove the protective trees to make bitumen car parks. (Wasn’t there a song about that)
There needs to be a whole of town plan discussion- not just a piecemeal one of get rid of van parks for more high rise/ businesses. Some far thinking decisions.

Jack
8 months ago
Reply to  Gillian

I read a week or two ago a person using a metal detector found 43 needles. Last time I walked along the beach the council use to use a sand rake to sieve out foreign objects. My father used to detect the beach in the 1970’s 1980’s and 1990’s and very rarely found a needle. Mainly coins, rings and chains or beer can rings.

Bill
8 months ago

Ah yes, the attack on caravanners continues. We have 20,000 + kilometres of coastline in this country yet all we hear is let’s close these caravan parks so others can use the area.
You can bet your life that development money and like minded councillors are looking at these sites. Units will obviously deny access to all except those who live in them. One of the reasons put forward here by some about caravan park users.

Lola Shanks
8 months ago

We need these parks as Nomads and visitors. The water front parks are a real draw card for the area. Personally we love Torquay park.
I do agree that the shops will suffer if these parks are closed. We love visiting Hervey Bay each year and are looking to move there next year.

Rob
8 months ago

Local councils should not have the power to close any caravan parks. The state government needs to step up and protect these rare costal parks for the good of national tourism.

Rhonda Olifent
8 months ago

These caravan parks have been in existence for a very very long time. There are not too many places throughout this country where you can “holiday” right on the beach with access to showers nd toilets and shops across the road.
These caravan parks are a draw card to the area. They DO bring in money to the community and they are not free loading by camping at free camps.
Many families can NOT afford to stay at the likes of the Big 4 at Helensvale or other places that have all the bells and whistles. These craven parks that have been apart of HB community for many years should STAY. Spend the money on upgrading the facilities and making the sites a bit bigger so family vans that are bigger then the old 16 footer can get onto their site without twisting the hell out of their vehicle….make them more user friendly!
Remember, these parks add character to the Fraser Coast and have been part of the history for many many years…..Fraser Coast has many open spaces along that stretch of coast line for people to enjoy….leve it as it is, but improve your existing caravan parks!

Mike George
8 months ago

Keep the parks. They are worthwhile investment bring people and cash into the local economy. For every dollar spent creates eight dollars through the district.

Ron Leen
8 months ago

It is typical of some of our councils i question weather these councillors actually have there hand on there heart for the betterment of Harvey bay residents and the caravaners like us or weather they are in bed with there dodgy developer mates for a brown paper bag under the table

David
8 months ago

I agree, leave the caravan parks as they are, apart from any upgrades needed to improve the facilities.
They and the waterfront make HVB what it is, and why people go there.
Maybe the same people book the spot a year ahead, but they are still going and spending their money at the local businesses. Replacing the parks with a lagoon and open parkland “sounds” good, but that means a huge increase in traffic as locals drive there to utilise the space, no where to park, unless several large carparks are built. Extra parking lots then eat into the available parkland area, the very thing that those opposed to the caravan parks are supposedly wanting.
Most of the tourists once they have arrived and set up don’t use their cars every day, and don’t cause any congestion.
For the benefit of the tourists, local businesses, council income, and keeping HVB the way it is, LEAVE THE CARAVAN PARKS AS THEY ARE.

Danielle Plesums
8 months ago

Get rid of the caravan parks, the land should be used for the public to enjoy

Carol
8 months ago

There is plenty of foreshore for the public to enjoy already. BTW which part of the Bay do you live in.

Sylvia shaw
8 months ago

Well iv never been so disappointed to hear such nonsense. We and many others have been coming to Hervey Bay, staying in caravan parks bringing money into the town. To close caravan parks on waterfront will stop all of us vaners bringing cash into town. Please I hope this doesn’t happen. We ride our bikes from pialba caravan park into town daily through many nice parks and parkland all along the waterfront. There are any amount of parks, waterpark, picnic areas along this waterfront already. Towns need tourists to stay in these parks ti support business

Carolyn
8 months ago

Keep the caravan parks, they are part of the heritage of these towns. Holidays are about being close to the beach and all children should have the experience of staying in a caravan or tent and freely running diwn to the beach, it’s the Australian way.

Marie Wellard
8 months ago

Keep the caravan parks

Gary Webster
8 months ago

Keep the caravan parks and reduce the number of councillors in Hervey Bay . Hervey Bay has 11 councillors and 6 are councillors for Hervey Bay itself surly 2 or 3 could manage this saving rate payers $100,000 each councillor per year .

Last edited 8 months ago by Gary Webster
Mark Parry.
8 months ago
Reply to  Gary Webster

I live in Torquay and happy with the caravan Parks being there.

I certainly would not swap them for the high rises that will end up being built on there space. This council has got the taste for high rises, as well as the rates revenue that high rises will bring in.
Examples being the now 18 floor mega centre to be built in Torquay as well as Topaz, the Shelly Beach Hotel, two more high rises to be built in the Marine Precinct at Urangan, and probably more that we haven’t been told about, and let’s not forget the Taj Mahal they’re building for them selves in Pialba.

It won’t be that long before we have to change our name from Hervey Bay to Sunshine Coast.

Now don’t get me wrong, I am all for progress, but the right type of progress. Destroying these parks, to me, is not the right progress.

Greg
8 months ago
Reply to  Gary Webster

It might be different in Qld but since when has being a councillor been a paid position? Other than an allowance of <$10k to cover basic costs the privilege of being an elected member of local council is voluntary, at least it is in my part of Australia

Carmel Wilson
8 months ago

Keep the caravan parks along the waterfront. Grey nomads travel all year round not just in school holidays. If they close the town will lose as people will keep heading north.

Kim Liebscher
8 months ago

Appalling,disgusting,idea to close Torquay camping ground The surf Coast Shire ,since Steve Bracks doubled the taxes on camp grounds ,has lost so much access for a beach holiday which is very upsetting !! There is such a demand for so few sites that you have to book a year ahead to get allotted a short stay, not at a time of your choosing, for a beach stay. Who are these awful people who are thinking up these proposals.They need to be stopped

Marlene
8 months ago

Keep the caravan parks as they make Hervey Bay such a nice place for families to come and enjoy a safe beach and enjoy the whales

Jane Shaw
8 months ago

We come up from Sydney and have been to Hervey Bay many many times over the last 35 years and always stay at a caravan park while there. We stayed at Pialba last time and absolutely loved it. There’s not many places left like the Hervey Bay beachfront caravan parks. We parked up our Motorhome and travelled everywhere by our push bikes. The place is amazing for choices of whatever you may want to do, whether it’s sitting by the beach or checking out the food & drinks at the local pubs. So many choices! Keep the caravan parks open or people will drive by and spend their money elsewhere! You can get anything you want in Hervey bay.

Denise Morris
8 months ago

It is tragic that these caravan parks are deemed unlikely to be upgraded, let alone be removed for even more open space. The proposed fee increases for the already developed Scarness Caravan Park has made it prohibitive for us to continue to travel from Brisbane and park our caravan in your beautiful beach front in the off seasons. It will also make it even more difficult to get an available site with fewer park choices. Therefore we have now made the difficult decision to put our caravan park up for sale. Shame on you Fraser Coast Regional Council.

Denise Morris
8 months ago
Reply to  Denise Morris

Further to my previous comment, there was a typo – I meant “deciding to put our caravan up for sale” NOT “caravan park”.

Beverley Price
8 months ago

The caravan parks along the Esplanade in Hervey Bay should be left for what they are, Caravan parks. I can remember when it was o ly tents thatcame and I have lived in Her ey Bay for over 70 years. The camping areas were always packed with campers booking their ste for the following year when they came, . There ware camping grounds from Urangan, though this was never gazetted as a camping area, to Gatakers Bay. Trouble seems to be that the. now council wants to get rid of all that and put mo strosities as the twin towers along there so we can be in line with the yuppy places like the Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast. People who came her always returned ba abuse it was safe for children to swim in calm waters and play on beautiful beaches.Leave the waterfront alone . Destroy somewhere else

Tina Greenhalgh
8 months ago

The changing face is because the Torquay Towers were allowed to be development approval, higher than any buildings, including Gold Coast, outside of Brisbane. This destructuon of community inclusive and family friendly will continue if people don’t support people who are fighting to stop the excessive progress. The caravan parks are commercial space and as such can be used for commercial development. This doesn’t mean open/green space.

Mlbeneke@outlook.com
8 months ago

Big waste of money on fancy upgrades.. just the amenities should have been addressed.

Jack
8 months ago

Upgrades are required because of electricity and water systems have been allow to degrade.

I used to work in government. When the bureaucrats’ wanted to close a public service they would always spend a bunch of money to justify the closure of the service. Always saying it cost far more than what it earns for the government/public. But they failed to mention that in the previous 20 years they spend bugger all on the service and always turned a profit.

NEVER let a bureaucrat have any part in making decisions.

Old silver
8 months ago

Most relaxing place to spend time in. The parks are walking distance to shops etc. Keep the parks and collect the southern dollars in winter and our dollars in summer. KEEP THE PARKS

June Turner
8 months ago

Better to upgrade the caravan parks, as they bring in great wealth to the community & don’t allow developers to get their greedy hands on it, the community needs to know the great wealth visitors bring to the area or else like a lot of other places will die without tourism. The visitors that frequent caravan parks actually spend more than those that pay a high cost in the resorts, they don’t put much into the community

D MCCONNELL
8 months ago
Reply to  June Turner

I say keep the caravan parks OPEN. They are part of what the Hervey Bay holiday experience has always been and families can afford to holiday this way easier.

Maggie
8 months ago

What is wrong with HB council, just don’t understand there thinking about wanting to close these beach front camps. Hervey Bay will die and go backwards. The money that comes in from the camper’s that come to HB, keeps this place going
Please please don’t close these camps, they make Hervey bay unique. The camps are mostly full most of the year. Be very disappointed if they close, will never come back to HB if that happens.

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